Curse

Tenebrae · Mar 25, 2010, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunntar

This is where you lose me. You have those same elements in PvE... So it's *your* perception that makes the difference. You perceive a different challenge in PvP than in PvE. In PvP, that challenge is enough to satisfy you, no? But in PvE it's not? True, AI is dumber, but that doesn't mean there are no challenges, and no coordination or teamwork. But those challenges don't provide enough gratification, so you need to substitute it with virtual loot to make your entertainment complete...?

This is where you lose me...

Yeah same elements ..... so driving a Rusty crappy 90`s Ford is the same as driving a Dodge Viper GTS ...... because they both have wheels , windows , and gear.

Seriously pal , the only thing that PvP and PvE have in common is that theres a player involved ..... and if you play with H/H theres only 1/8 Human players. When talking about fighting , fighting thru PvE can be hard sometimes and a challenge the first or second time you do X ...... after that , theres no challenge. PvP is totally diff stuff , you cant compare them and even so , HA has an end chest lol .

Anyway , you are missing the point , for more info check my prev post .

Lanier · Mar 25, 2010, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And yet you are! Your reward takes many forms just in this paragraph alone. Socialization, lack of pressure from bad PUGs, material rewards of vanquishing, the fun of playing in groups who know each others' capabilities, etc. If none of these things were possible by playing the game, its highly unlikely you would continue to play.

I guess we had a misunderstanding then, as I assumed that you were talking solely about tangible (ingame at least), material rewards.

Kaleban · Mar 25, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I guess we had a misunderstanding then, as I assumed that you were talking solely about tangible (ingame at least), material rewards.

Sort of. I'm positing the idea of rebalance of tangible rewards to better attract the playerbase to dead areas.

Intangible rewards in PvE, such as playing with huildies and socialization are not something that could be balanced by ANet because that's a player initiated action.

The difference is, to "play" the game you kill stuff. ANet can balance rewards such that no matter where you kill stuff you're materially rewarded equivalently. This would form the basis of a balanced (materially anyways) gameworld.

All the stuff you mentioned in your previous post would be what I consider "icing on the cake." For you it may be the best part (as icing is to some hehe) but its "tacked on" to the base game of Guild Wars.

All I know is that slogging through two hour dungeons with PUGs (and high failure rates in HM) and ending up with crap whites for my time investment kind of soured the experience. Were I better rewarded for my time, I'd be more inclined to replay those areas, and many PUGs would be better motivated as well. It has to be acknowledged that the drop system in GW is far out of whack compared to most MMOs.

And yes, I'm sure someone will point out that the experience of the dungeon is the reward. Its ONE reward, but is certainly not enough to cause me to want to replay the area, and if ANet thought that was enough, then the drop/loot system might not even exist. IF areas were better reward balanced, it would incline players to revisit/re-play areas they long since abandoned, such as Sorrow's Furnace.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 25, 2010, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Update on my progress through the Skill Hunter title tracks, IMO it definately bears serious relevance to this topic, and to me, the fact that I'm progressing through all 3 as this thread progresses, to me serves as a pretty up to date and factual semi-statistical basepoint to show just how bad the rewards system is.

Finished Tyrian Skill Hunter last night, grand total of loot gained by all those bosses, is basically zip. Even when you consider that yes, the greens and golds are supposed to be rare, 150+(Safe estimate by my book)bosses killed, no greens, no golds, naught but whites and probably 10 at most blues, is bad.

On we continue to Canthan Skill Hunter.

Day 1(today), approximately 30 bosses killed, that's a pretty conservative estimate, has netted me once again, no greens. No golds, and this time, no blues either. Just a couple whites and some mundane craft mats. Random drops, certainly. Absolutely apalling? Definately. Bear in mind, chasing these titles, whilst not massively expensive, has still cost me well over 100k so far, and is set to cost me at least a couple hundred more.

Not wanting to start cutting into the Ecto I've accumulated through the evil demon that is farming, I actually had to take a short side-track last night and farm some more $$ to pay for cap sigs. Now this is where things become glaringly apparent: In the 3 Vaettir runs I did with a solo sin, I gathered about 15 golds, several rare crafting mats, and a buttload of other random white, blue, etc. Overall, from the 30 mins or so I spent there, I netted about 15k after selling, and I might mention, that was selling to a merchant.

No sane person could state that there is not a problem poking it's head up right there with the time vs rewards. In all honesty, my reward for somewhere around 4 days work so far on these titles, is the fun I've had running around, seeing places I've not visited in quite some time. However, that being said, even that fun is starting to blur into boredom, and certainly is not paying for itself in even the slightest measure.

Had I spent the same amount of time ecto farming, I would probably have made at least 100 ecto. There is a pretty damn big reason right there for the profit minded to never ever set foot out of ToPK or the UW by my reckoning. However, this isn't just about me, so feel free to pick through this post and make of it what you will.

Turbo.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 25, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You also said that nothing in the game is rewarding or fun so lets delete it and close the servers right ? no dude.
This thing is about balance , not a scream for "omg gimme ectos in maguuma" or "increase chance of BDS +50% i want one!" , this is about BALANCING the rewards between time/effort/mode . Balance is universal , dont think about "yeah , if i balance that , what do i get , more fun ?". Is not about giving something to players or keeping players in GW or making the game easier/wealthier/funnier , is about making rewards FAIR.
It is unbalanced and thats a fact you cant deny , if you played the game for its entire content ( yes , all areas including elites ) you would see it. Hell , same number of gold drops in dungeons end chests for a lvl 1 dungeon than a lvl 5 ? oh cmon , REALLY ?.
This game isnt perfect and for some ppl is not funny anymore but thats not a reason to give up balance and delete servers. Even if that balance means NO CHANGE in number of players its still fair and logical so it must be done.

There are other logical changes to be made and most of them are not going to happen and maybe this is one of those but i gotta tell you , if more rewards are added in order to balance some places , i can tell for sure that playerbase number WONT decrease ..... but increase instead in some areas. This change can only bring good things.

The fact is, is that Guild Wars was never meant to be a game about farming phat lewt, and isn't designed at all around getting phat lewt.

If you are tired of the gameplay, expecting phat lewt to fill the void is just going to leave you full of disappointment.

and lololol@ "You also said that nothing in the game is rewarding or fun so lets delete it and close the servers right ? no dude."...I'm not sure if you have a reading comprehension disability or what, but it was Failban who said the game isn't fun.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 25, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So are you saying you would play PvE even if no loot dropped... ever?

I would, and do.

When I log on once or twice a week and do a dungeon with my guild, I usually give all of my loot and gold to a guildy, because I simply don't care.

In fact, I gave a guildy a req9 eaglecrest axe the other day because I simply don't care about loot.

Tenebrae · Mar 25, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

.I'm not sure if you have a reading comprehension disability or what, but it was Failban who said the game isn't fun.

Funny you said that when you didnt get a word i said. Proof :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

The fact is, is that Guild Wars was never meant to be a game about farming phat lewt, and isn't designed at all around getting phat lewt.

If you are tired of the gameplay, expecting phat lewt to fill the void is just going to leave you full of disappointment.

No one said GW is or was meant to be about farming ... and rewards have nothing to do with farming but after all your posts i think you wont get it , not even in 100 years.
No one said that is tired of the game play so they want more rewards to play again , no one expects rewards to fill any void because theres none but you still act like someone did say that stuff ..... guess words are cheap huh ?

Like ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I would, and do.

When I log on once or twice a week and do a dungeon with my guild, I usually give all of my loot and gold to a guildy, because I simply don't care.

In fact, I gave a guildy a req9 eaglecrest axe the other day because I simply don't care about loot.

Yeeeeaaaaaahhh RIGHT !
Like all GW players or ANY RPG player would play a game for 4-5 years without ANY loot and or rewards ..... sure . Where do you live ? in Dream Land , Chocolate Candies St num 4 ? cmon ....

Kaleban · Mar 25, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Don't even try

I wouldn't even bother arguing with Yelling Teneb, as you can see, he puts words into others' mouths (claiming I said the game isn't fun, which I never did) and that builds his whole argument around such false premises and "logic" that relies solely on his skewed viewpoint.

You simply can't win an argument with him, unless you drop to his level of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "neener neener" over and over.

@Yelling directly, if you can sit there and tell me that in all the time you've spent playing GW that you have never once put anything in your Xaishen Stash, have no saved crafting mats, and your characters are solely equipped with collector weapons, only then will I believe your claims.

If not, then all your claims are simply hypocritical posturing and serve nothing but to drag down the quality of the thread.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 25, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeeeeaaaaaahhh RIGHT !
Like all GW players or ANY RPG player would play a game for 4-5 years without ANY loot and or rewards ..... sure . Where do you live ? in Dream Land , Chocolate Candies St num 4 ? cmon ....

What, you think I'm lying?

lolyou

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 25, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

(claiming I said the game isn't fun, which I never did)

Yet you do in nearly every post. I'll start listing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

how much "fun" reward is there to be had in re-playing the same areas the umpteenth time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

GW follows the same pattern, as do many online MMOs. The PvP reward is the satisfaction of defeating different opponents with varied skillsets, both gamewise (the actual skillbar) and player execution. The reason PvE has a loot system, drops, an economy, and in many cases a player crafting system and auction/trade houses is that these material rewards are a tangible replacement for the PvP thrill.

Beating down your 11 millionth orc/goblin/charr in PvE is not going to be as fun as beating your 11 millionth PvP opponent, because its always possible for players to innovate, not so the AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

All I know is that slogging through two hour dungeons with PUGs (and high failure rates in HM) and ending up with crap whites for my time investment kind of soured the experience.

You're just trying to make the game into something it isn't, which is a loot-based game like Diablo 2, Borderlands, or WoW. Guild Wars isn't loot-based, and never has been. You are bored with the PvE aspect and are trying to fill the void with a make believe loot system in GW when it just isn't there, and was never intended to be.

Kaleban · Mar 25, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Yet you do in nearly every post. I'll start listing them.

Damn dude, you're really thick!

Notice that the larger quote references the PvP side in comparison to PvE, the necessity of PvE based material rewards are a replacement for the PvP thrill of the beatdown, in neither case did I claim there was no inherent fun to GW gameplay.

As for the first quote, that's a subjective question. The noob who's played for a week will find everything is new and shiny, but as with ANY toy, someone who's been playing the same game for years will find the lustre is diminished.

By switching up the reward system, it can breathe new life and "shiny" into an area that is largely ignored.

The obviousness of my ideas and posts seems to be largely wasted on you. Are you intentionally trying to be thickheaded?

[edit] As for your dungeon addition edit, many people have stated that the rewards for going through a dungeon are not commensurate with the time taken. If ANet wants to maintain a happy playerbase, then level and reward design needs to be taken into account. Yes, its fun beating down Stone Summit and Dredge and Destroyers the first couple of times, but what keeps players coming back (as is evident with UW/FoW, and others) is the knowledge that they'll be rewarded for their efforts.

You need to learn English I guess. I am not claiming the game isn't inherently fun, it is, but the fun diminishes over time without change. A stagnant game is a dead game, hence why many developers encourage large mod communities to keep the game fresh. With no one at ANet working on "freshening" the game, the only thing that will keep players around who've done everything hundreds of times over is to update the rewards of areas, as that is what keeps them around.

If I have to explain the carrot on a stick idea to you, then I'll just have to concede that there is no helping you.

Kaleban · Mar 25, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Guild Wars isn't loot-based, and never has been. You are bored with the PvE aspect and are trying to fill the void with a make believe loot system in GW when it just isn't there, and was never intended to be.

I lol'd.

So why is ANet concerned over the virtual economy, why are there hundreds of different types of drops, why are there gold farmers, etc., etc.

I'm not the delusional one here, apparently though you are. I'm not trying to add a "make believe" loot system, I'm simply trying to show that by editing the wholly real loot system that's already in place to spice up old areas, that more of the game would be attractive to the playerbase.

Again, if you can't see the obviousness of this fact, whether because you deny human nature or are in fact delusional, then there is no helping you.

Kaleban · Mar 25, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

SNIP

I'll post this then as a last resort for you to see reason and sanity.

I will concede defeat and admit you are 100% right if you open up GW, and take screenshots of every pane of your Xunlai Stash, including mats, and your characters' inventories, and post them in this thread showing them completely empty save for collector weapons on your characters.

IF you can't do it, or simply refuse, then we all know you're full of it, and are just trying to be an obstinate hypocrite.

So there's your challenge, since as you've claimed that I'm wrong in my supposition that rewards are what motivate people, the burden of proof is upon you.

I await screenies...

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 25, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

IF you can't do it, or simply refuse, then we all know you're full of it, and are just trying to be an obstinate hypocrite.

Wait...I'm a hypocrite if I don't live the life of a beggar?

My entire point is that Guild Wars relies on it's game play, not some kind of in-depth loot system. How would me having a non-collector scythe prove this point wrong? I've never farmed X area to get Y skin, and never farmed an area to save up cash for a certain skin. I've bought a few expensive armors of the 15k per piece variety, but I've never farmed an area, and I've never said to myself "Well, I'd like to do X mission, but the rewards just aren't worth it". I do an area that I feel like doing, or I help a guildy finish a campaign or HM vanquish.

The "loot-system" has never once effected my choice of what to do in Guild Wars...I actually struggle to fathom the thought process of people whom are effected by the gold value of doing a place.

Bryant Again · Mar 25, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I will concede defeat and admit you are 100% right if you open up GW, and take screenshots of every pane of your Xunlai Stash, including mats, and your characters' inventories, and post them in this thread showing them completely empty save for collector weapons on your characters.

1. Create new character
2. Move all mats + inventory in storage on new char
3. Put all inventories of other chars in storage
4. Take screenies of chars' inventories
5. Take inventories back, take screenie of storage
6. Put all stuff on new char back on storage, go to log-out, delete new char, take screenie.

SUCCESS!!!

(not that it matters, anyway)

Personally I used to want rare items way back in the day, but realized I only wanted them due to envy. Now I just run with an FDS and Tall Shield in FoW armor in the Int. districts.

afya · Mar 25, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

drop ↑ = NM play (why play HM if u can get things if NM?) = NM/HM merge = even more OP game play as the current builds allow u to SC through anything in NM.

Pandora's box · Mar 26, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

All I know is that slogging through two hour dungeons with PUGs (and high failure rates in HM) and ending up with crap whites for my time investment kind of soured the experience. Were I better rewarded for my time, I'd be more inclined to replay those areas, and many PUGs would be better motivated as well. It has to be acknowledged that the drop system in GW is far out of whack compared to most MMOs..

Thats right! Not only for dungeons. A map that takes more than 1 hour to reach just to get to the place where you will explore further to find bosses bosses should have a good random yellow/green drop at the end. Not consumed by hero's/henchmen, but for every player. Otherwise its not worth the effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And yes, I'm sure someone will point out that the experience of the dungeon is the reward. Its ONE reward, but is certainly not enough to cause me to want to replay the area, and if ANet thought that was enough, then the drop/loot system might not even exist. IF areas were better reward balanced, it would incline players to revisit/re-play areas they long since abandoned, such as Sorrow's Furnace.

True, but I don't agree with your experience statement: XP is the only thing in this game which is CHEAP! You get XP everywhere. What we want is GOLD lol! Or valuable items.

THAT makes it worth to replay areas or, even better, explore the world if higher rewards can be found in every far away spot...

Kaleban · Mar 26, 2010, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

The "loot-system" has never once effected my choice of what to do in Guild Wars...I actually struggle to fathom the thought process of people whom are effected by the gold value of doing a place.

Well, ANet, and probably all pychological study disagrees with your argument, seeing as how everything I've read tells that humans are primarily affected in their behaviour by two things, fear and reward.

If this were not true, then game designers like ANet wouldn't have to introduce titles, such as Guardian and Vanquisher that rewards players for playing in HM. If everyone thought as you did, they would just replay the same areas/missions for fun.

The same can be said of the Zaishen Mission/Bounty system. Heck, even prestige armor skins are a reward for extended play, since to get the materials you NEED to play longer than a couple hours a week, which many journals say is the extent to which people should play video games anyways.

Look, I'm not debating what YOU should do or have done or like to do. This isn't about your preferences or pet peeves. The idea to balance the rewards in the game is for the playerbase at large, who ARE motivated by rewards.

I mean, why even respond to the negative? If you're completely unmotivated by rewards, then balancing rewards has zero effect on your gameplay, assuming you also play with like minded individuals. But, if you are even slightly motivated by rewards, and honestly admit that the state of the game has gone way downhill, especially considering that the playerbase is focused into high reward areas, then a change such as this can only be a good thing!

So I guess I don't understand why you're so vehemently opposed to something that is good for everyone, even you? Is it a bad thing to have barren outposts populated again? I don't think so. I'll never understand why some people would be so adamantly against something that serves their own best self interest, and that of the population at large.

wetwillyhip · Mar 26, 2010, 06:23 PM // 18:23

i'll post the whole thread topic in one sentence. Guild Wars needs more incentives for gameplay such as rewards and dropping the loot-scaling. There.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 26, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Well, ANet, and probably all pychological study disagrees with your argument, seeing as how everything I've read tells that humans are primarily affected in their behaviour by two things, fear and reward.

If this were not true, then game designers like ANet wouldn't have to introduce titles, such as Guardian and Vanquisher that rewards players for playing in HM. If everyone thought as you did, they would just replay the same areas/missions for fun.

The same can be said of the Zaishen Mission/Bounty system. Heck, even prestige armor skins are a reward for extended play, since to get the materials you NEED to play longer than a couple hours a week, which many journals say is the extent to which people should play video games anyways.

Look, I'm not debating what YOU should do or have done or like to do. This isn't about your preferences or pet peeves. The idea to balance the rewards in the game is for the playerbase at large, who ARE motivated by rewards.

I mean, why even respond to the negative? If you're completely unmotivated by rewards, then balancing rewards has zero effect on your gameplay, assuming you also play with like minded individuals. But, if you are even slightly motivated by rewards, and honestly admit that the state of the game has gone way downhill, especially considering that the playerbase is focused into high reward areas, then a change such as this can only be a good thing!

So I guess I don't understand why you're so vehemently opposed to something that is good for everyone, even you? Is it a bad thing to have barren outposts populated again? I don't think so. I'll never understand why some people would be so adamantly against something that serves their own best self interest, and that of the population at large.

That's a lot of typing to just call me a liar.

I'll respond to your last post. If ANet could magically hit a button, and everything was perfect? Yeah, it would be great. However, there's far more important things that I care about than making Maguuma drop ectos.

As for barren outposts being repopulated? You are just absolutely naive if you think that is even remotely true.